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Stiletto Network

Author Pamela Ryckman

The Stiletto Network is changing the face of business

In Stiletto Network – Inside the Women’s Power Circles that are Changing the Face of Business Pamela Ryckman offers insight into the unfolding empowerment of women and the impressive doors being opened.  These aren’t women who are reinventing “The Old Boys’ Network,” but women who are self-empowering and going for it!  After 40+ years of women growing to become a key part of the workforce they are now stepping into their own, envisioning change and making it happen.  These are the women who are crashing the glass ceiling and making it obsolete.  Become a part of this next decade’s explosion of female wealth and power!  You will learn fascinating things that women are making happen on this episode of the Manager Mojo Podcast.
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 Transcript: The Stiletto Network

Pamela Ryckman

Steve: Hello and welcome everyone to the Manager Mojo podcast.  This is Steve Caldwell and I’m so excited today that we are going to have an awesome guest.  We have Pamela Ryckman with us, and Pamela is the author of Stiletto Network: Inside the Women’s Power Circles that are Changing the Face of Business.  We’re going to have a great time discussing her book. And guys I want you to understand you have a lot to learn today.  This is not just for the ladies.

 

Pamela has written for the New York Times, Financial Times, Washington Post, Fortune.com/CNNMoney, The New York Observer and many others.  She’s been featured widely in the press and has appeared on the Today Show, Rock Center with Brian Williams, Good Day New York, Bloomberg TV and MSNBC, where she’s a contributor.  She’s also been in other publications such as Chicago Tribune, New York Post, U.S. News & World Report, Forbes, and many many more.  She’s a sought-after speaker and we are really honored that she took her time today to share with us.

 

Before she became a journalist she performed internal strategy worked for Merrill Lynch’s Global Markets and Investment Banking Group, and for Goldman Sachs & Co.’s Equities Financial and Strategic Management Group.  She earned her A.B. in Comparative Literature from Princeton University and her M.A. in Journalism from New York University. She is fluent in French and proficient in Italian and oh my goodness, isn’t she really talented and unfortunately she’s got to be interviewed by a guy they can barely speak English, but that’s okay.

 

Pamela: That is not true.

 

Steve: (laughs) Pamela, welcome to the Manager Mojo podcast were so glad to have you.

 

Pamela: Thank you very much.  It’s a pleasure to be here.

 

Steve: Well we’re going to have some fun today and if you don’t mind tell us a little bit about what fun is happening in your life and what you are up to these days, before we get into the book.

 

Pamela: Well it’s interesting, because I tell everybody that I have lived this story, the story of the book as I was writing it.  And I saw what all of the women were out there doing for each other, moving each other forward in their lives and careers. And they ended up doing it for me as well.  Through the book I ended up meeting a bunch of TV and movie producers, and now I am doing work that I never expected to be doing.  My career has gone off in a direction that I never thought to dream of.  I have written a couple of screenplays now, and in addition to continuing to give book promotion and stuff around Stiletto Network I’ve also launched into this new exciting area.  So we’ll see how it goes.  But it’s really fun, and I’m loving the work.

 

Steve: That’s wonderful and I know that will be a lot of fun for you. So very cool!

 

Pamela: Thank you!

 

Steve: Well just as a little background here, this podcast as well as me, I’m very committed to growing all people, both men and women in the workplace.  But I have to say I’m always had a special place for helping women succeed in the workplace.  And as life would have it, I have two daughters.  I never had any sons.  And now I have three granddaughters Pamela, so I’m surrounded by women, and I want them to know how powerful they can be — as well as men, and how we relate to women properly.  So just share with us, if you don’t mind, what you really mean when you talk about the Stiletto Network; what does that really mean for those of us who are trying to relate to it?

 

Pamela:  This started for me back in 2010, when I attended a women’s conference in California.  I started to hear about these dinner groups and then from totally unrelated women, professional women; women from their twenties to their seventies.  And what I unearthed was an underground movement of women’s dinner groups and networking circles.  Now most of them have no more than ten women.  But in aggregate they number in the tens if not hundreds of thousands of women nationwide (I found some globally too) but even in the nation, that many women doing the same thing at this moment in history.   And you laugh and say, “Ok women going dinner together. That’s not nationwide news” right?  [Steve laughs]   That’s sort of what we’ve always done, but what I started to do as I found the group again from women in their twenties to their seventies women in all industries and in all age groups doing the same thing.  I started to follow the money, and it turned out that all of these women are generating billions of dollars of transactions and corporate board seats attained, and companies founded and funded; all the result of this underground movement, this totally organic grass roots movement of women’s dinner groups.

 

Steve: Very cool.

 

Pamela: So it is a powerful nationwide trend.

 

Steve: So, women are gaining, they’re actually meeting together and they’re talking about business as well as personal— would you consider this maybe mentoring to one another or counseling, coaching… how would you describe it?

 

Pamela:  All the above.  So what’s kind of interesting, I mean again, most of these groups are really rooted in true friendship, true loyalty, and trust.  And so I jokingly tell everyone it’s a love story disguised as a business story, because it really is rooted in friendship.  On some level people have said if this just the female version of the old boys’ network.  And in some ways we have things in common, and in some ways it’s quite different.  So what I found among a lot of the groups that they had in common is many of them are cross industry.  They will bring together women from tech and media and finance and retail, you name it.  All of these women coming together in their dinner groups then end up providing your intel, guidance, strategy making, strategic introduction for each other; whatever each woman needs to succeed.   And yes they absolutely do mentor each other; yes the idea is formal networking.  But what’s different about this again, from the old boys’ network is a lot of the men because they could…. They didn’t have to look outside of their industries to succeed. They could hang out with a lot of men, say in finance or in law.  Women have looked outside of their industry at a time in history when there is more innovation taking place than ever, and those cross industry relationships are incredibly valuable.

 

Steve: Very interesting.  You know you’re bringing up a key point.  I kind of think of it as silo thinking.  I’ve seen a change from people being locked into their own silo, just because of the changing job environment and the changing technology environment in the world.  You have to be able to relate to companies outside of your own particular discipline today don’t you?

 

Pamela:  That’s a hundred percent right.  I think companies of all sizes, from global behemoths to real startups, are striving for global wide-ranging insight. And what’s interesting in these groups is what is the best way to get global wide-ranging insights.  Well having your confidants, your peer groups, your advisers as subject matter experts in all of the other fields.  So each time one of the women is having an issue, she’s surrounded by people who may have had similar experiences but are drawing on possibly a different skill set, or toolkit from whatever industry they’re in.  And they can bring that insight, and possibly that innovation to each other’s careers, to each other’s lives.  And in each other’s varying fields.  So absolutely, I think none of us can afford to stay stuck in a particular silo, oblivious to developments in other fields.   We all have to look outside to become the best leaders we can.

 

Steve: Absolutely. I think we learn from one another.   What would you consider from your research and looking at the small groups — What did the women involved in these groups consider to be a couple of their greatest benefits in participating in things like this?

 

Pamela: Well, interestingly, the groups were totally organic.   It wasn’t that women were coming together with some glorified goals; they weren’t going to get  twenty percent of women on corporate boards by 2020.  It really wasn’t anything like that.  They came together because two women may have met at an event and really liked each other, but didn’t have a reason to  talk.  And they said let’s go out for dinner, and then each one m will bring another woman that the other one didn’t know. And the idea is to expand your horizons and increase your sphere of influence.  Right? Not to draw from the same pool, or silo, as you are saying, but to actually get outside of yourself and to think more broadly about the world.   What I found is that is exactly what these groups have done for women.    They’ve allowed women to make great leaps across industries.  Instead of thinking like, I’m a lawyer I work only in this field.  Suddenly, that woman, because of her skills would find herself working for a media company.  Or in many cases, women have come together and because of this, because they are just exchanging ideas they’ve ended up making strategic investments or even launching new companies together, because their skill sets are complementary.  And because they see a market for whatever they are producing.  Because women actually now control, what is it, 80 percent of household spending.

 

Steve: Absolutely.

 

Pamela: So they’re developing innovations and ideas together because of their different abilities and different skill sets.   Some of the big accomplishments that I talk about in the book  as a result of the groups, again totally organic, women have created the most downloaded app in the history of Warner Bros. and launched the single most successful fundraising pilot in the history of the Red Cross from women donors.  They’ve joined the founding team of one of the fastest-growing startups in history, and steered it toward a billion dollar IPO.
Overseeing the largest high-yield bond offering of 2010.  This is all of the result of these little dinner groups of women coming together and exchanging ideas.  It’s an incredibly powerful force!

 

Steve:   Without a doubt.  It is those connections and conversations based upon a friendship that I think allow you to see openings that you might not have seen otherwise.  Don’t they?

 

Pamela: That’s absolutely right.  And also it allows each woman to see opportunities for each other before the woman might see them for herself.  Because you know, like me.  I never even thought to… I thought I was a journalist right?  And it wasn’t until someone said ‘hey you’re great with dialogue.  Maybe you want to end up writing for movies and TV.’  That wasn’t even something I thought to hope for.  I see it happening in my own life, but I’ve also seen it happen for all of these other women.

 

Steve: Very cool.  In your book there are a couple things I would like to bring out for our leaders to begin to think about.   You’ve mentioned it a couple of times already.  You said they talk about the old boys’ network.  Here’s the quote it says, “One thing the old boys’ network understood was that it wasn’t always about people at your level.  They understood the important thing was to bring the next generation along”.  This is a quote from Edie Weiner.  And so my point, I want to ask you, does your research also show that?   I happen to believe today that men are not doing those things very well anymore.   I don’t see them really networking.  What I’m seeing with clients, and I’m just curious if you’ve seen this as well, people are and especially men have gotten so busy that they’re really not doing this type of group networking and mentoring that maybe once happened thirty years ago.  I don’t see it as much today.  Did your research give any indication like that?

 

Pamela: I think that’s true because we all have our heads in our phones. And one of the things that I’ve realized is that looking at these dinner groups, they all use technology to amplify their voices to create a world in which there are more visible femals. They also all have a very strong in person component.  I think to build those real relationships that go the distance that allow you to see opportunities for each other before each person might see them for themselves, you actually really have to know what makes a person tick.  You have to have a really good grasp of their skills and their abilities and what makes them passionate and excited.  And so I think that is something that everyone has struggled with.  But I think what Edie was talking about — and I love that quote in the book –what’s really interesting, which of the fact that you historically, when I was finding these groups,  what I was trying to figure out why so many of these groups were cross industry.  Why they brought together women from these different fields.  And also how these women had found each other.  And historically what I found was that working women didn’t have the camaraderie that men had.  They didn’t go on the hunting and the fishing weekends or golf games or you know there was no I scratch your back, or you scratch mine, because women were running home to take care of the families.  On weekends they were taking kids to sports or birthday parties; where the guys would socialize more.  I think that the glass ceiling continued in part because women didn’t have access to the male network, and were pulled in so many directions that we didn’t get to build our own.  And then frankly there just wasn’t a critical mass of working women for a long time.  Now we’re looking at it finally after 40 years of women in the workforce, there are enough women in positions of power or aspiring to positions of power that they can take more risk.  They can share information and resources with the gal in the office next to her, without worrying that one of you is going to get pushed out because you are just a token.  Right?   You can shine a light on that talented up and comer and mentor and sponsor her because she’s not going to automatically knock you off your perch.  I think you know historically men did a good job of this because they were going to move up together.  You know with I scratch your back, you scratch mine.   But women couldn’t do that. Now I think it is happening among women more often  to your point than it is among men, in part because I think you are stereo-typically, if you want to bring in the hunter gatherer thing, women have always been social and collaborative creatures.  And so now those skills and those gifts that we have historically applied to our other endeavors, the Girl Scouts, or the carpool or the PTA, you know that collaboration it now incredibly useful in business and to give the strategic advantage for women right now, you know potentially over men.   And by the way, I have 3 sons, so I love men!  There’s no way I could’ve written a man-hating book.  But I think that what women are bringing to the table, both the skills and methodology, is really, really effective right now.

 

Steve: It is.  It’s very interesting because I totally concur that the social focus of women is a real strength and the more they use that the more they empower themselves to take advantage of that.  I think the better that they themselves feel about themselves and the more achievements that they have. You know I have the benefit of a lot of years of watching this evolve.  My wife was an executive and a senior executive in the banking industry and so I’ve watched that same type of thing.  Women didn’t have it at first, the type of access that they have today. And so to me it’s all about talent; the talented person, give them an opportunity to achieve whatever they want to achieve, and I see that anyone (I don’t know, maybe I’m misreading the book) but it seems to me that what these ladies have done is created what Napoleon Hill called the mastermind.

 

Pamela:  It is.  The fact is 10 heads are better than one– right? — especially if they’re experts, when they’re all talented.  What these women all have in common, interestingly, as opposed to groups that are just randomly assembled, there’s this incredible filter.  They’re all handpicked because they are motivated, they are kind, they are smart, and they want to want make the world better place. And there is a certain generosity of spirit; when I say there’s a love story… I think there’s an understanding that we are better together than apart.  And if we open our minds and open our investment opportunities and open our Rolodexes to each other and often our wallets as well, that we will all move forward together much more quickly.

 

Steve:  Well there’s nothing but benefit…

 

Pamela: Yeah.

 

Steve:  There’s nothing but benefit both the two women and to society in general.  I believe that businesses really need that outside input in order to change from where they are.  When you looked at all of this you actually used a term that I was not familiar with, but I think it’s a great term.  You called them “girlpreneurs.”  I love that term.  So  tell our audience what you mean by “girlpreneur”?

 

Pamela: Well I said it in kind of a cheeky way (laughs)

 

Steve: I like cheeky..(laughs)

 

Pamela:(laughs)  What we have going on right now in this country, we have a number of different forces that are conspiring to make these groups incredibly powerful.   Finally again after forty years of women in the workforce we have  enough women who have risen to positions of power and who now have their own self-made wealth.  They are really thinking about legacy who want to invest in the next generation, and you want to…who view it as their personal responsibility to move the needle.  You know in ways…a lot of these women started there careers on the forefront of feminism, and they felt that the world would be completely different by the time that they were sort of wrapping it up.  And the world isn’t completely different, not in every industry.  And so you have a lot of women who are reaching down and who have deeper pockets and are able to invest at the same time you have (and gets to the girlpreneurs) all of these  young women, an explosion of young women who are starting what they hope to be often high-growth tech -based businesses.  They are looking at opportunity.  They are seeing opportunities because they’re seeing a need that they have in their personal life and they’re meeting the needs of themselves and their friends at a time when women have more access and more disposable income than we’ve ever had.  You have these women at the top who are now investing in the businesses of these younger women entrepreneurs, these “girlpreneurs”.   And what we have is the generations for the first time in history the generations are coming together and lots of lots of money is changing hands.

 

 

Steve Yeah, that’s a beautiful thing.

 

Pamela: Yeah. I’ve seen this… I love trend stories.  I love pattern recognition.  And I’ve seen it over and over again; behind so many of these younger women, these girlpreneurs, these female entrepreneurs, are older women who made it the hard way right?  Who climb the corporate ladder and who are now using their funds to help slingshot these younger women to success.  It’s very exciting.

 

Steve: It’s very cool.  You know I’ve seen a lot of people that really they’ve always thought that…this men as well as women…there was always this false security about look, “I have to know everything in my job” and I think one the greatest benefits of these types of groups, is that you don’t have to know it all.  You can be..you can let your hair down so to speak, and just be yourself.

 

Pamela: a  hundred percent.   I think knowing at all..I think that there’s been a huge shift from …I’m a huge fan of you access to information right?  But the fact is there’s been a hugh  deluge of information, all we have is information.  And information does not equal knowledge. And so what I think is more valuable now is knowing where to go and how to get the answer, rather than just, you know, expecting, anyone to have the answer at their fingertips.  Because with technology the answers are changing so quickly.  And having access to the  expert is arguably more important than pretending to be an expert yourself.

 

Steve: Exactly.  Pamela you mentioned trends so what do you believe is next for both men and women in regard to this research that your seeing really just kind of explode right in your face here.  I think is just wonderful to see. What do you kinda see next?  Where do you see this evolving?

 

Pamela: Well you know that the real thesis of the book an what  I say when I do big public speaking engagements I say I am a start with something kinda bold, I say the next decade is going to see an explosion of female wealth and power.  Because we had enough companies being formed right now with female founders and female employees and female investor that you know, whatever eighty percent of startups fail right?  Most of them never get off the ground.  But the fact is, if any one of these make it big and some of them already have you have your Guilt Group and your Paperless Post, if anyone of these makes it big you are going to have suddenly a lot more money in the hands of women.  And then it has shown that   female entrepreneurs are more likely to open their wallets for each other, and angel invest and even invested for the venture capital level, once they’ve been entreprenuers themselves.  Because they understand the ecosystem.

 

Steve: Right.

 

Pamela: You’re going to have…suddenly, once the money starts flowing among women, I think it can continue to happen.  And so I think the world is going to look very different in the next ten years and people are going to say, “How did this happen?” I laugh but it’s happening through dinner groups. This is how it’s happening.  It’s happening for groups of ten, but what we’re looking at right now, it is like we said this explosion.  And it’s almost like this massive Venn diagram all of these interlocking circles as women use those collaborative skills as they use their social skills. They fly coast to coast to make those introductions.  “Hey when you’re in LA come sit in on my dinner group.  You’re going to love these women. Who knows what going to happen?

 

Steve:  Yeah.

 

Pamela:  And then suddenly it sparks the next idea in the next new business and the next investment. And so on and so and so on.  Like that silly hair commercial,  but that’s what I’m seeing happening.  And I also think, interestingly this is not about….you know you said for men too.  This is not about, there’s no man hating voice in this book or in this story, because it’s not something that I saw and it’s not something that I feel.  And I think what’s actually happening to is that men have different– men are asking for a different way to work.  And they are finding that working in collaborative teams with women actually allows them to accentuate different qualities,  loosen up a little bit.  Where it’s more collaborative, perhaps less competitive, and I think a lot of men, young man in the workforce today grew up with fathers that they never saw.  You know who and divorced families and things like that and I think a lot what I heard from a number of the men that I interviewed is that they want a different way of life.  And that maybe it’s the women’s voices who are sort of pushing for it, but the men will actually be the beneficiaries of this as well.  You, my son will not work the way that my parents worked and my father worked.  He’ll have.. it’ll be a different life for them.

 

Steve: Very cool. I totally agree. Did you see in the trends as well, you mentioned women going to the groups and maybe going from city to city.  But one thing that I noted, that’s a huge change to men, especially in the last ten years, is that I’ve seen women actually be willing to invest in themselves and their own education, their own learning far more than men are doing these days.  Did you see that as well?

 

Pamela: I absolutely have seen that anecdotally. I don’t have any research or data around that.  It will be really interesting to find out what percentage students in the online courses and other students or adult students are women these days. Because I definitely think…I think that there’s a.. anecdotally I’ve seen sort of a big trend in sort of self betterment. Among women and sort of a desire and hunger for learning.  Even among the super-educated. Yeah.

 

Steve:I I don’t see the research either, but I mean anecdotally, as you say, I certainly see it.  It is very interesting to me at where were going in business, I see more, both men and women, being more entrepreneurial than they were twenty years ago. I see them taking responsibility, and I think that that is a great thing for all of us. So what would be your advice to it based upon what you’ve seen your how would you recommend that  people take this forward and this information forward?  What would they do if you were to say, give me an action item, or two that that I could take?

 

Pamela:  Absolutely.  Because as I was finding these groups and also I said living this story as I was writing it.  I believe that my goal was not just identify powerful nationwide trend, but also to cattelize it.  Because I found something that was so effective among women of all different groups. So the first one is… you know I talk about a lot high-powered women in the book, but it’s important to remember that they were not all wealthy or accomplished when they started these groups.In fact many of the women talk about their Stiletto Networks like there some secret recipe.  Like these are the people who made me who I am, who allowed me to take a great leap.  So I say is start now. There’s no barrier to entry because this is organic, because can be what you want it to be.   Again find another person with whom you feel united by valued interests and ethics and you bring someone to the people that they don’t know and have them bring someone you don’t know. And go to dinner together and think about what you can do to help each other.  Some of these groups often what they will do, this is sort of the most structured formal thing, what I say is that they systematize acts and offers.  People get to talking and socializing and all this stuff and you don’t want to appear to be too transactional in the interaction because again it’s social.  So one way to neutralize that is “Ok everybody be quiet for a second!  Ok let’s go around the table.”  “What is your short-term goal?”. “What are you dealing with right now, either in your work or your personal life and how can we put our heads together, how can we help you?”  And you go around and it’s each person.  And the other thing is, I say, most of the groups I think 10 is sort of the magic number, and assembling a group.  Because with ten people you have…I say 8 or ten…you have enough people with different skill sets from different backgrounds and different areas of expertise, but you also have… it’s intimate enough where you can really share your private, your hopes and your fears, your dreams.  You know the stuff you probably wouldn’t want to share in a wider environment, both personal and professional. See this really does have to be circle of trust, a peer group, a support group, people you can come to are we really going wrong for your work, who can give you that support and advice.   And the sort of lift off, you need the strength that you need to solve your problems.  And I think what’s also interesting, in these groups there is no singular definition of success.  Being a CEO is necessarily right for all women or men.  You could be a writer who works from home, like I am.  This is not just about getting to the next one on the ladder.  It’s actually much…it’s deeper than that.  It’s about looking your entire life, and saying “who do I want to be, what is the best version of myself and how can I help, and how can I get there?”  And I think in doing that you really want to assemble people who are trusted, kind, and have generous spirit and are interested in moving on themselves forward, but also bear compatriots in this.  I think you’d go and there’s a lot…!

 

Steve: No, no I get it!  I love this, this is good.  Because what you’re saying I often time I teach that it is not all about you, it’s always about the other person..I think these groups allow you to get outside yourself.  And to look at what somebody else is doing, and in in turn by helping them you’re helping yourself.

 

Pamela: That’s absolutely right.  It’s interesting because it’s almost turning the “networking” I say that in quotes, on its head.  Because many people don’t like the term networking because it feels like you’re trying to shake somebody down.  Right? That it’s actually all about you.  But what I found that the best networkers, the people are who are effective, actually don’t think about themselves in these interactions at all.  They lead by giving. And it sounds again counter intuitive, but it’s all of these people who are trying to approach interaction by being as helpful and useful to others as possible. And then what they found in this sort of blissful karmic way, if the people are so grateful to them, that it all comes back to them.  In manifold ways.

 

Steve: So interesting.

 

Pamela: It’s really redefining networking to be about what you can do for others rather than what you can do for yourself.

 

Steve:  Well it’s that leading by example end and really putting the other person first, there’s just no substitute. You can’t out-give.  That’s the bottom line. The more you give, the more you’re going to get back.

 

Pamela: Yeah.  It’s true. It’s true, and it’s having that sort faith that that interaction even if you don’t see the…it’s having a very long-term mindset in the group too.  If not the relationship, themselves, even though there’s this sort of massive money trail, and I really did report it like a business story I can prove it, but the relationships themselves are not transactional.  There is a fundamental belief that common to every single one of the groups that you know it’s not if  I do something today for you that you’re going to do something for me tomorrow. It’s not putting a dollar in a relationship bank with the intention to withdraw, you know come next week.  It’s actually this belief that, you are going… you are sort of committing actually help these other people in whatever their goals are.  And then when you have a need that they will sort of jump in for you as well, but it one of the things you know the other thing about these groups, when you when you are assembling your group you really do want think about diversity.  This should not be all your best buddies or college friends, the people you talk to anyway.  The idea is to really get outside of your own sphere and like we said before expand your horizons increase your sphere of influence. Think about what you..what is your  greatest effect are your greatest impact on the world.

 

Steve: Beautiful. Beautiful.  That’s great advice for all of us to take. Pamela you given us so many ideas to think about today and and really I’m positive it’s going to help all of us become better leaders in our organizations.  I’m sure there are people that would love to connect with you, tell our listeners, what’s the best way to to keep up with Pamela?

 

Pamela: Well I have a website. It’s www.PamelaRyckman.com.  You could follow me on Twitter @PamelaRyckman.  There’s also a Stiletto Network Facebook site.  It’s www.facebook.com/Stiletto-Network.  And I post regularly in all of those and on Google + as well! So I’ve been very active on social media so that is a great way to do it.

 

Steve: Awesome I will make sure that we put this in the show notes will put all of those site in for everybody, so that they can connect with you.  And on behalf of the Manager Mojo team,  I just want to thank you so much for your contribution to making us all better leaders today.

 

Pamela: Thank you.  I thank all these amazing women I got to interview for this book.  So. because I sure  learned a lot!

 

Steve:  I want to recommend that all of our listeners pick up a copy of the Stiletto Network and you’re going to learn a lot of things. And I just think it’s wonderful to read these inspiring stories. I thank you for bringing him to the world.  On behalf of our audience.  I want to wish you the very best in all of your endeavors, and I look forward to hearing successes on your writing as well that you’re going to be doing here; the screenplays that’s just very exciting.

 

Pamela: Thank you.  It is exciting.  We’ll see.  Who knows?!  Thank you very much I appreciate it

 

Steve:. All right, thank you, and  we appreciate you being a part of the Manager Mojo podcast today and educating us on the Stiletto Network.