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Carmine Gallo Author of “Talk Like TED: The 9 Public-Speaking Secrets of the World’s Top Minds”
Do you want to know the secrets for excelling in your career? For those who have dreams and aspirations, this is an interview of the Manager Mojo Podcast that you don’t want to miss. Carmine Gallo, communications coach and author of the New York Times’ best-seller Talk Like Ted – 9 Public Speaking Secrets of the World’s Top Minds provides insightful, simple, and very ‘Tweetable’ ideas for rising to the top of your game.
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You can read the transcript here:
Steve: Hello, everyone, I’m glad you’re with me today. This is the Manager Mojo Podcast and I’m thrilled to introduce to you Mr. Carmine Gallo. Carmine is a communications coach for some of the world’s most admired brands. The fact is, business leaders turn to him to help them tell inspiring stories, and we’ve all heard of his clients. They include executives at Intel, SanDisk, Coca-Cola, Chevron, LinkedIn, Pfizer, Edmund’s.com, Medtronic and many other brands in a wide range industries. He’s the author of seven books including the international best-sellers: The Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs and Talk Like Ted: Nine Public Speaking Secrets of the World’s Top Minds. Talk Like Ted was published in March 2014 and debuted at number six on the Wall Street Journal Best-Seller List. He’s been featured in the Wall Street Journal, New York Times and on CNBC, ABC’s 20/20 and, if that wasn’t enough, he also writes a popular column on leadership and communication for Forbes.com . Carmine, welcome to the Manager Mojo Podcast today!
Carmine: Steve, thanks for inviting me. We’ll try to turn up the mojo for your listeners today.
Steve: I totally love it and really can’t wait to share today. I’m, personally, a big fan. I’ve read Talk Like Ted from cover to cover and absolutely, totally enjoyed it, so, before we dive into some of the specifics there – if you don’t mind – tell our listeners a little bit about what’s going on in your life these days and what you are focusing on with executives.
Carmine: Yes, well — You have the title right – communications coach – so, essentially what that means is that I work with executives on how to deliver their message in a way that captures the public’s imagination. So, if people have a new product, a new idea to launch – mostly at these larger brands, typically my client base – I work with the executives on public speaking presentation skills and telling a more persuasive and inspiring story. I also do a fair amount of public speaking and that’s the fun part of what I do. So, I get invited to a lot of conferences and sales conferences and I write – and I try to write columns and books to reach a wider audience because it’s not everybody’s that’s going to hire me – and I understand that. But, there are so many skills and techniques that I learn from my day-to-day work with some inspiring executives that I can teach other people, so I try to reach a lot of people through my work. But, if you just remember my name – carminegallo.com – that’s where a lot of the content is housed.
Steve: And I certainly want to encourage our listeners to go to carminegallo.com and connect with you because, one thing’s for sure, when I read Talk like Ted it really crystallized a lot of ideas that I’ve had over the years and I really would like to start there, if you don’t mind. You work with executives on communication and trying to get their message across, so, what are some of the problems that you find that executives usually have when they’re really not getting the message through?
Carmine: Well, I’ll tell you, not from my own experience – per se – although I have a number of ideas, but I’ll just tell you something that I heard recently. Vinod Khosla is a billionaire venture capitalist, so he – he knows a thing or two about persuasion and Vinod Khosla invited me, a couple of weeks ago, to speak to his CEOS of his portfolio companies – the companies he invests in – and he turned to the group and he said something that, I guess, shouldn’t have startled me, but it surprised me. He said, “All of you are brilliant, which is why I want to invest in you, but none of you know how to tell a story.” You know, Steve, I thought, Gosh, that’s exactly it! That’s the problem! No one – nobody knows, really, how to tell a story. They think they know how to deliver a point – look at me fill in the blanks! And look at all the beautiful bullet points I have!
Steve: Yeah.
Carmine: And the pictures! You know, and the clip art! And the 300 slides I just created! You should listen to me! Well, no, because you’re not telling me a story. You’re not engaging me. So, I think it all comes down – back down to: how do I tell the story behind my idea, my product? A pitch is a story. A lot of people think I’m pitching a product to a customer and I have ten minutes to grab their attention and get them to – to take the next step, right?
Steve: Right.
Carmine: And, so, it’s all about marketing and product. I’ve got ten minutes! I’m just going to tell you about my product instead of stepping back and understanding how do I tell the story behind this product and how do I make it meaningful to you and your life? This whole idea of communication skills, Steve, really came full circle for me literally a few weeks ago. There was a gentleman who I’ve been in touch with for just a couple of years. He is a middle-level manager at a very large tech company that all of your listeners would know – about 80,000 employees at this tech company. Over the last couple of years he has really started thinking hard about, ‘How do I deliver better presentations? How do I speak better?’ And what has happened to this manager is that his stature within this company is being elevated all the time – he’s recently been tasked to be an evangelist – they actually have a group of evangelists –
Steve: Right.
Carmine: Who are, sort of, considered the top presenters. So, now, he is flown to different countries when there is a major business pitch to be made. The account manager for that particular company may not do it, they want him to do it because he is better at communicating the story behind the technology, so, what happens is — if you’re a manager right now –we’re talking about Manager Mojo –
Steve: Right.
Carmine: You really want to turn up you’re mojo. The way to get noticed is to improve your public speaking presentation and communication skills because most people don’t work on it – they’re not going to work on it. So, you’re – by definition you’ll be set apart.
Steve: No question. I find that most of us in management and leadership really don’t give a lot of forethought to how what we need to say is going to impact the listeners and it’s almost like we’ve created a whole culture in management that says ‘flying by the seat of your pants is the right way to go’ and nothing could be further from the truth if you really want people to connect with you. So, when you talk about telling a story –
Carmine: Yeah.
Steve: You know, what – what would be you’re encouragement to us to really start to change our mindset a little bit —
Carmine: Okay.
Steve: And start to think about that story?
Carmine: Steve, let’s give you’re listeners very specific actionable techniques that they can take away immediately from this podcast.
Steve: I love it.
Carmine: I don’t want to get too theoretical into the whole storytelling thing. So, let me give you something very specific that will help you tell the rest of your story. I can’t, you know, take hours to talk about every component, but here’s something that always works and you can use right now. I call it “creating a Twitter-friendly headline”. Think about that – “Twitter-friendly headline”.
Steve: Right.
Carmine: So, you know how – you know how many characters Twitter allows, right?
Steve: Right.
Carmine: 140.
Steve: Right.
Carmine: It is a great exercise – think about the story. The first thing that I, as a journalist, have to do, in fact, you know, just between me and you and your thousands of listeners here, I spend maybe 80% of the time, or 60% of the time when I write a story , on the title. — On the theme.
Steve: Yup.
Carmine: Because that sets the rest of the conversation – the theme. And that grabs your attention. Theme is really important. Well, think of a public presentation as exactly the same. What is my theme? If I were to summarize this presentation, or this pitch, or my idea, or my product into one sentence what would it be? And the reason why I use Twitter as an exercise is because once you start going over 140 characters it gets really long and hard to remember. 140 characters is about right, maybe even 120 characters. Let me give you one specific example: Steve Jobs was the world’s greatest corporate storyteller, brilliant. I’m still trying to find that one person who can deliver an entire presentation better than Steve Jobs – that’s hard to do, hard to do.
Steve: Yup.
Carmine: So, let’s go back to Steve Jobs. In 2008 he introduced a new product called the MacBook Air. Okay, new computer product, new notebook, there were a million notebooks on the market, so how did he differentiate the MacBook Air? He said, “What is it? In a sentence: it’s the world’s thinnest notebook. The world’s thinnest notebook.” In one sentence you get it immediately.
Steve: Yeah.
Carmine: It’s like, oh! that’s kind of interesting, tell me more! How thin is it? How do you get it so thin? What do I compromise? That’s the rest of the presentation, but it falls naturally under “Today I’m introducing the world’s thinnest notebook.” You know, there’s a lot of time that took, okay? And I know this as a fact because I know the designers at Apple. They spend a lot of time trying to summarize, in one sentence, what the name of a product means and that it becomes very consistent. So, the product headline is everything you see in the e-mails, on the front page of the website, in the digital signage in the stores. It all says the same thing about the product and people are taught – the employees are taught – to talk about that product in that way. So, the next time you have a pitch, you have an idea, you have a product, you have a service, can you tell me what you do in one sentence of 140 characters or less? If you can’t than it’s probably too convoluted. Go back to the drawing board. It’s a great technique, Steve, and it works. I don’t want to guarantee anything to your audience – it works almost every time. I’m going to give you a little secret, okay? This I a little persuasion trick.
Steve: Fantastic.
Carmine: When you tell people – when you say, “The most important thing I want you to remember is …” whatever comes next is what they’re going to remember. Let’s keep that our little secret; I don’t want that to get out.
Steve: Wow, I love that. I absolutely love that and what a great example and great wisdom for all of us. Frankly, just listening to it – I know that it applies in every meeting we have, no matter whether it’s just to our team members or to a presentation we’re doing. If we could do this and learn to do it effectively there would be so many fewer conflict situations where we’re not really communicating what we wish to communicate.
Carmine: Yeah. Yeah, and think of how frustrating it is for someone like me – for a communications guy – and I’m a reporter too. So I’m trying to get stories from people. I just want people to explain what you do. I cannot tell you – this happens every day, actually – I can’t tell you how many times I’ve run into people, “So, tell me about your product.” Or “What do you do?” or “Tell me more about – I see your title, but I’m not sure what you do.” Or “Tell me about your company.” Five minutes later I’m still confused and I’m – I’m a fairly smart guy in business, I read a lot, you know? I’ve been covering this for years.
Steve: I get it.
Carmine: I’m always – five minutes later – how many, you know, like networking type of events you been to, you introduce yourself to somebody and you ask them, “What do you do?” And they look at you with that puzzled look and they start thinking hard about it, like, “That’s a good question.” As soon as I hear, “That’s a good question” I know I’m dead because I’ll be there for ten minutes and I’ll have no idea what they do.
Steve: And you’ll still be trying to figure out what their business is. I know – boy, this really hits close to home for me and I’m so glad that you mentioned the Twitterexample because I actually discovered this recently myself, quite by accident. I was speaking to a group of people and we were talking about leadership, and in this day and time when people really are –Twitter is such a big thing in their lives, Carmine, what what they did was they were tweeting things that I said during the middle of the speech.
Carmine: O – Okay.
Steve: And when I went back and looked at those it was, like, eye-opening to me because for the first time I was, like, “Oh, they got that!” (laughs)
Carmine: Interesting. You know what a great – not everybody has the – the opportunity to learn in that way. That – you actually gave me an idea – that’s – that’s a very good way of thinking and the – your presentation. What are those tweetable phrases?
Steve: Exactly.
Carmine: What are those tweetables – that’s right, because –and I get the same reaction too and now I’m at a point where when I give a presentation I, kind of know what sentences, what lines are going to resonate because I’ve seen them on Twitter before. So, I will use the same ones, you know?
Steve: Sure.
Carmine: So, unfortunately, we don’t always have that opportunity because you’re listener could be in a sales mode.
Steve: Exactly.
Carmine: And they don’t really – they’re not talking to an audience of people who are tweeting at the same time, but that’s a very good exercise, think about what Twitter-friendly quotes –
Steve: Yeah.
Carmine: And to build – and that’s where you build a story around –
Steve: Well, you –
Carmine: You have to build a story around that.
Steve: It made me think even if you’re practicing with a team – communications – or you’re practicing a sales pitch, have somebody listen to it and ask them what the tweetable moments were.
Carmine: Yeah.
Steve: It was really fascinating to me when I went back and looked at it. I – I – I – I have to tell you, I’m really thankful that my message was as tight as it was because I would’ve really been embarrassed if – with those tweets if they hadn’t been. It – it was –
Carmine: We can talk, well, let’s talk about tight message because that actually brings up a point on how long should you deliver your presentation?
Steve: I love it. Talk about it.
Carmine: Yeah, let’s – let’s talk about that because that’s an entire chapter in the Talk like Ted book that you mentioned.
Steve: It is.
Carmine: A whole chapter because Ted – the Ted Conference, as most of your listeners know, I’m sure many of them are fans –
Steve: Absolutely.
Carmine: Is eighteen minutes. No speaker – whether your name is Bill Gates or Sheryl Sandberg – no speaker – can speak more than eighteen minutes on a Ted stage. Now, Ted has found mostly through trial and error over the last thirty years – that eighteen minutes is a good amount of time. It’s just the right amount of time to get across your information without putting your audience to sleep. I have seen research – and I quote the research in my book – that after about ten minutes your audience naturally – there’s some kind of just – engrained – mechanism in our brain that starts to seek out alternative stimulation. In other words, we get bored after about ten minutes.
Steve: Yup.
Carmine: It’s a little harder to get bored after ten minutes with something like this, okay, this podcast, because there’s two speakers. If it were just you or me it wouldn’t matter how engaging a speaker you are, if you’re just talking straight – which most people do, right?
Steve: Yeah.
Carmine: For more than ten minutes you’re audience is going to start tuning out. So, I think, and there’s no, you know, there’s no scientific proof of any minute, right? But, I think, based on what we know now, maybe 10 – 18 minutes is a good amount of time to deliver a presentation. If it – let’s say – in the management realm – or entrepreneur area – a lot of your listeners fall into those categories. If you’re delivering a product update, you know, to your staff 10 – 18 minutes might be enough time. If you’re pitching a customer 10 – 18 minutes might be their timeframe. Now, that doesn’t mean that you cannot stay in that customer’s office for another twenty minutes if they want to see more, if they want to ask questions.
Steve: Right.
Carmine: But, the content itself let fall within that 10 – 18 minutes range and I can’t tell you how many people I meet, okay, sales leaders, who say, “Oh, but, Carmine, I have so much content to cover. That’s why my sales meetings are one-and-a-half hours.”
Steve: Oh, my gosh!
Carmine: And then – oh, I’m not kidding.
Steve: Yeah.
Carmine: One-and-a-half hours. And then when I talk to those customers and I – sometimes I’ll do that – the customers say, “Oh! That was the most boring thing. I wish it would have stopped after about thirty minutes.” See, so, your customer doesn’t want to hear you for an hour-and-a-half. They probably only want 10 – 18 minutes, to be honest.
Steve: If you’re honest with yourself, you don’t want to listen to yourself an hour-and-a-half.
Carmine: And a lot of people will say, “Oh, but, Carmine, what about training? What about this? There’s more content then, we cannot cover it in ten minutes.” I understand that. Build in what are called “soft breaks” every ten minutes. A soft break can be, “Let’s go to a demo now.” And, “Now, let me show you how this technology works.” Okay? So, I’m getting away from the slide or I’ll introduce another speaker, you know, and, “Hey, I brought Bill, here. Bill is the vice president. He’ll tell you a little bit more about such and such.” And I’ll do that after ten minutes, but try to break up the presentation so we move away from the same slides and the same speaker for more than ten minutes at a time. That’ll keep it moving and pretty soon you’ve been – you’ve been in an office for 90 minutes. You’re in a 90 minute meeting and you ask the attendees and they’ll say, “Gosh, that went fast.” That’s because we break it up. We had a lot of other engaging elements as part of the presentation.
Steve: It makes a huge difference, doesn’t it, whenever you can really incorporate those breaks. I know I’ve trained hundreds of people in management and I continue to be amazed at how, when I go in and watch somebody that’s never trained a lot that they’ll –they know their material, but they never stop and break it apart so that the audience, themselves, can really relate to what’s going on and it just gets boring. I’ve got to tell you –
Carmine: We’re self-consumed. We’re self-consumed, Steve.
Steve: We are.
Carmine: It’s all about us. It’s all about me and my technology and my ideas and my product instead of putting yourself in the audience’s shoes and asking – they’re asking, “What’s in it for me? Why should I care? Why do I have to stay here for more than eighteen minutes or twenty minutes? I’ve got other meetings to get to.” You know? (they laugh) You’ve got to think from their perspective. It’s not all about you.
Steve: No, it –
Carmine: And your technology and your product.
Steve: It’s never about you is it?
Carmine: Yeah.
Steve: It’s all about them. I’ve got to share a funny little story that backs up exactly what you said, that you might enjoy repeating down the road. Back, years ago, one of the greatest preachers that I ever heard was a man by the name of Frank Pollard and Frank is passed on now, but he was famous for giving his sermons and not one of his sermons ever exceeded twenty minutes.
Carmine: Mmm, okay, good.
Steve: And, one day – isn’t that cool? That not one – twenty minutes. And, so, people starting asking Frank, they’d said, “Frank, why do you only speak twenty minutes?” and he had this dry wit and he just looked at people and his answer to that question was, “Well, you see, when I give a sermon I have a goal. My goal is to quit preaching before you quit listening.” Now, isn’t that cool?
Carmine: I love that quote. Yeah, “quit preaching” and that applies to everybody in business today. Quit preaching before you quit – I’m writing this down. Quit preaching before you quit listening.
Steve: Isn’t that awesome?
Carmine: Yup. Yup, that’s exactly – that’s a great story.
Steve: I know that I have benefitted from it, but I also admit that so many times I, as a manager and an executive, would go on and on and I’m like, “Why would I do that? because I know better.” And it takes discipline, doesn’t it, for us. It’s not enough just to know this – we have to discipline ourselves to do it.
Carmine: Well, everything – I don’t want to scare your audience – but everything we’re talking about takes a little work. (laughs) It takes work, it takes creativity –
Steve: Yeah.
Carmine: It’s not that easy to tell a great story and to deliver a great presentation which is why the majority of presentations are awful because what do you do? Let’s say, 90% of us use PowerPoint. So, you open your PowerPoint deck and you start filling it in because that’s the easy part.
Steve: Right.
Carmine: Hey, look, it gives me a template! I can write a headline for this slide and fill in all the bullet points!
Steve: Right.
Carmine: Probably the least effective way of delivering information and when you watch the great presenters – either on Ted or people like Steve Jobs or other extraordinary business presentations – it doesn’t quite look like that. It – they don’t – Steve Jobs never had a slide of bullet points. Ever. Not once. (laughs)
Steve: Isn’t that a amazing?
Carmine: Because their images – their words, yes, but text and images creatively placed – there’s stories behind the frames. Yeah, this takes work, unfortunately.
Steve: Well –
Carmine: But, it helps set you apart because very few people are going to do the work to be creative storytellers.
Steve: I think that’s awesome advice in itself and, the reality is, I know this audience and I know they’re not afraid of hard work. That’s why they’re trying to become a greater, more effective leader and, so, I don’t think that’ll be a problem. I think it’s a matter of just making yourself focused and do that work that you’re talking about. What do you, in dealing with this idea of death-by-PowerPoint that seems to exist today, do you believe that it’s just because it’s such an easy crutch? You know, why do so many of us really feel like we almost have to do a Powerpoint?
Carmine: Well, Steve, here’s where we may disagree – just based on the tone of your question. I like a visual accompaniment, so, I don’t – I don’t mind PowerPoint. I think it’s – we should be encouraged to use some kind of visual tool. I happen to use Apple Key Note because I use a lot of video in my presentations and Apple Key Note is just a little more elegant solution to incorporate slides and video.
Steve: Right.
Carmine: However, most of us use PowerPoint – that’s fine. There’s PowerPoint, there’s a new one called Prezi that’s very popular.
Steve: Right.
Carmine: There’s Apple Key Note. I don’t mind it if it’s done well. So, PowerPoint is not the problem. The problem is the fact that nobody tells a story, so they just fill their PowerPoint slide with a bunch of words. I’ve seen beautifully rendered PowerPoint that really compliment a story, I’ve seen awful PowerPoint – mostly awful – I’ve seen beautifully designed Apple Key Note slides and terrible Apple Key Note slides, so, it’s not so much the tool, it’s how people use the tool. When somebody’s telling personal stories and in the background on the slide there’s an image – a photograph – of that particular story or they’re talking about a case study and they show some photographs in the background of the people who they’re talking about I like that. I like that. But, see, how many of us do that? We don’t. Oh, this is PowerPoint! That means I must fill in the slides with a hundred words! No! Why not just show a picture on the slide in the background? That compliments your – see, you have to think through what is my story? And then go to the slides – if you’re going to use PowerPoint slides and say, “How best do I visualize this story as a compliment to the story.” What happens, and the reason why we all have this really bad impression of PowerPoint, is because we use PowerPoint as the storytelling tool.
Steve: Exactly.
Carmine: We open PowerPoint, that’s how most of us – and I used to do this too – that’s how we start. Well, I’ve got a product, I’ve got a company to talk about, I’m going to open PowerPoint and start talking about it.
Steve: Right.
Carmine: Yeah, and then it becomes, kind of, a dull, boring story just like 99% of the business presentations today.
Steve: Well, I started that conversation because I wanted you to tell our listeners that – your perspective. I totally agree with you. I know exactly what you’re talking about and I want you to know that just from reading your book, Talk Like Ted, it helped me to crystallize my own opinion on how to better make PowerPoint a part of my presentations –
Carmine: Great.
Steve: And, I immediately went and started changing them to be more storyboard written and using more photographs and pictures to tell the story.
Carmine: Oh, great! Good.
Steve: It just made sense – it makes sense.
Carmine: Yeah.
Steve: And, I want to testify to our listeners that just by following what Carmine is saying today I know that my own presentations are so much better now. I get such great compliments on them that I didn’t get before because there were too many words and too many bullet points and when I started just telling the story it made a huge difference.
Carmine: Oh, that’s great. That’s really good to hear and, again, that’s our little secret, okay? Because (they laugh) because people don’t even know why they like a presentation better than the other presentations they’ve seen that week.
Steve: Awesome.
Carmine: Especially their customers, okay? Your customers have seen a million presentations, so they’re expecting something really boring just like everything else and then you walk in, you blow them away because it’s a little different, but they can’t even tell – they cannot pinpoint why it’s different.
Steve: Yup. They don’t know.
Carmine: But, they like it.
Steve: They don’t know, but all of a sudden your ratings go to outstanding, it’s so, like, wow!
Carmine: Exactly! “Steve’s presentation was great!” “Did you see Steve’s presentation?” “It was awesome!” (they laugh)
Steve: It’s a huge thing. Well –
Carmine: It’s funny, Steve, because people ask me – and I’ve gotten this question quite a bit – people will ask me, “Well, once everybody knows these techniques everybody’ll be doing it.” Eh, no, I don’t think so.
Steve: No.
Carmine: It’ll never happen because – I – Scott Adams – Scott Adams is the creator of Dilbert, right?
Steve: Yeah.
Carmine: And he was making fun of PowerPoint in Dilbert cartoons, like, in the year 2000.
Steve: He sure was.
Carmine: Yeah, and I said, “Scott,” you know, I interviewed him a few months ago and I said, “Scott, things haven’t changed.” And he said, “Carmine, they never will change because we’re all human and humans think everything they say is just oh-so important and has to be in that slide.” (they laugh) So, don’t worry about everybody else adopting all these techniques because they won’t.
Steve: That is so awesome.
Carmine: This will give your listeners some mojo.
Steve: I love it. Thank-you so very much. Carmine, thank-you so much for all of your wisdom and insight today. Is there maybe one final, sort of, encouragement you’d like to give our listeners today before we close?
Carmine: Yeah, absolutely. Don’t start a presentation without asking yourself, “What is it that I’m passionate about? What is it that I’m excited about that I want my listener to be excited about?” Because, typically, that – the answer to that question, “What am I really passionate about?” is different than, “What am I selling?” it’s very different and I learned this from, actually, Tony Hsieh taught me a lot of this – Tony Hsieh is the founder of zappos.com, so all your listeners know about zappos –
Steve: Of course.
Carmine: And Tony – I was interviewing him for one of my columns – and he doesn’t talk about shoes – okay? So, if you were to ask him, “What does your company do?” “Well, we sell shoes online.” But if you ask him, “What are you passionate about?” “We’re passionate about delivering happiness. How are we going to make you happy?” Do you see, Steve, how that is a completely different conversation —
Steve: Totally.
Carmine: Than “What do you do?”
Steve: Absolutely.
Carmine: Yeah, so, that’s the last thing I can – probably the most important thing I can leave with your listeners. Don’t deliver another picture presentation without first asking yourself, “What is it about my company, my product, my idea that I’m passionate about?” and then think through, “How do I transfer that passion to my audience?”
Steve: Wonderful. Wonderful advice. Carmine, thank you so very much for your insight and wisdom today and taking the time to share to our listeners. On behalf of our listeners, I certainly thank-you very, very much.
Carmine: You’re welcome, Steve. Thanks for inviting me.
Steve: You’re welcome and, just as a final thought, I want to tell our listeners, look, run, don’t walk, go out, buy a copy of Talk Like Ted: the Nine Public Speaking Secrets of the World’s Top Minds, study it from cover to cover and put the work in and I’m confident that you’re going to see great results. Thank-you, again, for joining us, Carmine, best of luck to you in all your ventures.
Carmine: Thank-you. Thanks, Steve.
